Saves in OD&D by class

By: Unknown on 05:49

The Y-axis (up and down) is the target number needed (or higher) to save. The X-axis (left to right) is the level of the character.
Most saves improve by 10% at each critical level (4th, 7th, 10th, and 13th for fighters) but a few saves improve by 15% at these junctures. In the case of the fighter Dragon Breath improves by +3 on two places on the progression, which is why it eventually ends up at a 5 or better at 13th level, just like wands. Observation: to pimp over a fighter make the character save versus Staves & Spells, to give him an easy save go with Death Ray or Poison.

Starting saves for M-U's suck donkey balls like everyone else but they stay sucky for a long time owing to the improvements not coming until levels 6, 11, and 16. But a few +3 improvements in the chart allow high level magic-users to end up vaguely comparable with the other members of the party. Staves & Spells is a unique case on the OD&D charts. Magic-users start out with a pisspoor 15+ to save, but at 6th they get a +3 bonus. Then at 11th they get +4 and at 16th level they get a whopping +5! That means the mightiest of M-U's only need a 3 or better to save vs. Staves & Spells. My uncle used to always say "You can't kid a kidder." I guess "You can't magic a mage" is equally valid.

Per Supplement I: Greyhawk the M-U chart is also used for Thieves.

Like M-U's, Clerics aren't very good at saving versus dragon breath. Must be why those guys always try to send the lone knight to slay all those wyrms. Staves & Spells, Dragon Breath, and Death Ray or Poison all get two +3 pushes, but the Staves & Spells goodness comes early in the cleric's career while the other two are delayed until later. I'm not sure what that means.

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Saving Throws, part 1a

By: Unknown on 17:05

In part 1 of my series on saving throws oddysey commented:

I'll admit, though, that I'm considering adding a "radiation" save. Not so much with the purity.

Funny you should mention radiation. Allow me to list one more set of saves from a game I have handy.

Mutant Future
Energy Attacks
Poison or Death
Stun Attacks
Radiation

The numbers on the MF saving throw chart line up closely with the Labyrinth Lord rules from which Mutant Future is derived, so much so that here are save categories as they appear on my custom World of Cinder GM screen insert:

Breath or Energy
Poison or Death
Petrify, Stun or Paralyze
Wands or Radiation
Spells or Devices

My charts are set up that way so I can drop in mutations and post-apoc tech at a moment's notice.

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Saving Throws, part 1

By: Unknown on 06:31

So I've decided it's time for some more cross-edition analysis like I did with starting gold & equipment or bigass monsters. This time I'm looking at saving throws. I've been thinking about doing one or more posts on saves for a while, but it was comparing 1st edition Oriental Adventures to Mike Davison's Ruins & Ronin that finally got me to set to work on it. One of my minor nitpicks with Ruins & Ronin and the Swords & Wizardry rules that it supplements is the single saving throw they employ. You could easily construct an argument that the D&D saving throw system makes no sense whatsoever, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to reject it without looking at what the present system actually does. Today I'm going to start this analysis with simply listing the categories of save for each edition that I have within reach as I type this.

OD&D
Death Ray or Poison
All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralization [sic]
Stone
Dragon Breath
Staves & Spells

AD&D1
Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell

Holmes Basic
Spell or Magic Staff
Magic Wand
Death Ray or Poison
Turned to Stone
Dragon Breath

Moldvay Basic & Cook/Marsh Expert
Death Ray or Poison
Magic Wands
Paralysis or Turn to Stone
Dragon Breath
Rods, Staves or Spells

Rules Cyclopedia
Death Ray/Poison
Magic Wands
Paralysis/Turn to Stone
Breath Attack
Rod/Staff/Spell

HackMaster 4th
Paralyzation, Poison, Death Magic
Rod, Staff, or Wand
Petrification, HackFrenzy, HackLust, Polymorph
Breath Weapon
Apology
Spells

Labyrinth Lord
Breath Attacks
Poison or Death
Petrify or Paralyze
Wands
Spells or Spell-like Devices

Basic Fantasy
Death Ray or Poison
Magic Wands
Paralysis of Poison
Dragon Breath
Spells

Observations

• One of the interesting things I see here is how the various categories evolve, couple, and de-couple. Poison and Death/Death Magic/Death Ray are always the same category of save, but Wands may or not have anything to do with Staff.
• I could totally see an OD&D referee using the Stone category for non-petrification attacks. "You hit a tripwire and several blocks of granite fall from the ceiling, save versus Stone or take 3d6 damage." And you could use the ODD Staves category for Robin Hood-style quarterstaff throwdowns, maybe a save versus Staves to avoid tripping or being knocked out.
• Death Magic is okay, save verus just plain Death is widely applicable (a fact I exploit in my Labyrinth Lord house rules), but nothing beats making people save versus Death Rays.
• A saving category called Dragon Breath implies that non-draconic breath weapons don't allow a save unless specifically indicated. This is a special case of the broader principal that may or may not inform your own game. I tend to assume that the category names Mean Something, in that if an attack form doesn't obviously fall under one or more category on the chart then the implication is that a save isn't allowed.
• In most editions Wands are the second save listed, but AD&D they're third. This matters when I run because of a rule of thumb I use. Some attacks fall under mutliple possible saves. Like a dragon breath attack that is poison gas or a wand of paralyzation. Sometimes the monster/item/whatever description tells you what to save against, but sometimes it doesn't. In the latter case I give precendence to saves listed earlier on the chart. So a Staff of the Gorgon (which I just made up) would use the Petrification column. I'm pretty sure I read this rule somewhere years ago, maybe an old Sage Advice? I dunno.
• Man, HackMaster is weird.

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